In this in-depth interview, Dr. Ivan Misner, founder of BNI, shares decades of insight into what makes networking groups truly successful.

The conversation begins with a light-hearted discussion about memory hooks, which Misner admits were often overused within BNI. Originally designed for one-time encounters, they became a weekly habit that diluted their effectiveness.

https://youtu.be/J-1kFs2gzKg

Misner then reflects on his early career ambitions, revealing that he initially planned to become a lawyer before discovering his passion for organisational behaviour and leadership. This shift ultimately led him to create BNI, though he never intended it to become a global organisation.

A central theme throughout the discussion is the importance of measurement. Misner stresses that members must understand why they track “Thank You for Closed Business” (TYFCB), explaining that accurate data is essential for growth. Without it, chapters operate blindly.

He also outlines his philosophy of success: consistent, focused effort. Rather than chasing new ideas, he advocates mastering a small number of activities repeatedly — summarised in his principle of doing “six things a thousand times, not a thousand things six times.”

The discussion moves into practical strategies for growing chapters, including his “we’re interviewing” approach to inviting visitors. This method reframes the invitation as an opportunity rather than a sales pitch, increasing both interest and perceived value.

Misner also addresses common structural issues within BNI meetings. He emphasises the importance of sticking to the agenda, warning that small additions can gradually erode effectiveness. He is particularly critical of how substitutes are often misused, arguing that they should promote the member they represent, not themselves.

Leadership and accountability are recurring themes. Misner introduces the concept of “addition by subtraction,” explaining that removing disengaged members can ultimately strengthen a chapter. He also encourages leaders to choose “hard-easy” decisions — tackling difficult issues early to avoid bigger problems later.

The interview concludes on a personal note, with Misner discussing his passion for BNI, his perspective on life decisions and his long-awaited goal of becoming a commercial astronaut.

Overall, the conversation provides a candid and practical guide to building stronger, more effective BNI chapters through discipline, clarity and a commitment to excellence.

Full Transcript

Darren: We’ve actually met before at a BNI event in Bolton in the UK.

Ivan Misner: Excellent. That was probably a while ago. It’s been years since I’ve been to the UK.

Darren: It was a long time ago. I remember a BNI member in the audience asked you what your favourite memory hook was.

Ivan Misner: My favourite memory hook? I’m curious, what did I say?

Darren: You said you wished you’d never invented the memory hook.

Ivan Misner: Yes, because it was misused a great deal in BNI. It’s not quite as misused anymore. People use memory hooks every week, but the idea was originally for when you meet people you don’t know, not for people you see every week in BNI. It really got overused.
If people press me, I usually tell them one of my favourites. One of the first I ever heard was from a dentist who said, “I’m a dentist. I believe in the tooth, the whole tooth, and nothing but the tooth be.” I thought that was hysterical, and that kind of humor inspired 7-Second Marketing.

Darren: My favourite one was from a plumber who said, “Remember that a flush is better than a full house.”

Ivan Misner: Yes, I’ve heard that one. I think that might even be in 7-Second Marketing. Maybe he stole it from my book.

Darren: I’ll still give him the credit. One thing I wanted to ask: I’m in digital marketing, but I never intended to be. When I was younger, I wanted to be a film director. What did young Ivan Misner want to be before BNI?

Ivan Misner: It depends how far back you go, but in high school and college I planned on becoming a lawyer. I was even accepted to law school. But for some reason, I changed my mind. I honestly can’t tell you exactly why. I just knew I didn’t want to go down that path anymore.

So I went to graduate school instead and discovered a real passion for management and organizational behaviour. I completed my master’s and doctorate with an emphasis on organizational behaviour and leadership, and I studied under Warren Bennis at USC. So I went from wanting to become a lawyer to eventually having many lawyers work for me.

Darren: That probably worked out better.

Ivan Misner: Yes, definitely.

Darren: When I said I was going to be speaking with you, a lot of members in our chapter got excited and wanted to ask questions. One of them leads nicely from what you’ve just said. Our vice president, Zoe Davenport from Henry R. Davis Accountants, asked whether you have any regrets about going down the BNI route, and whether you would rather have done something else if you had it all to do again.

Ivan Misner: No, absolutely no regrets. I love what I do with BNI. I feel like I have the best job in the world because my job is helping hundreds of thousands of people make a living.
In the last 12 months, BNI generated over 12 million referrals and more than 19 billion US dollars’ worth of business for our members in thank-you-for-closed-business. Nineteen billion dollars is more than twice the GDP of Liechtenstein. In fact, BNI generates more than the GDP of the bottom 10 nations, though they are all small countries. Still, that’s incredible for a business organization.

There’s also a deeper question here about regret in general. I try to live with no regrets, because I think regret usually comes when people act outside their values. If you do something you know you shouldn’t do, then regret makes sense. I’ve always tried to live according to my values.
Now, if you asked whether I’ve made mistakes, absolutely. Lots of them. Would I do some things differently? Of course. But mistakes are tuition for success. The problems you run into and the mistakes you make become your tuition for success. I’ve paid a lot of tuition.

Darren: So as long as you stay true to yourself and your beliefs, the mistakes are just part of what defines you?

Ivan Misner: Yes, as long as you’re true to yourself and your values don’t hurt other people. Early in BNI, I hired people and became very worried about making the wrong decisions because their livelihoods depended on me. A friend told me, “Don’t worry about making mistakes. You will make them. Just focus on recognizing them quickly, taking responsibility, fixing them, and moving on.” That was very good advice, and I took it seriously.

Darren: Something you mentioned that feels very relevant to our chapter is thank-you-for-closed-business. We know a lot of people are getting referrals and business, but they’re not always recording it. BNI is actually generating more than is being reported. Do you have any advice on getting members to record their thank-you-for-business properly?

Ivan Misner: People don’t care about how until they understand why. If you just tell them to do it, they may nod and ignore it. But if they understand why it matters, it resonates.

You can’t hit targets you’re not aiming at. A chapter or organization has to know where it wants to go, and that requires measuring performance. If you don’t measure success accurately, it becomes garbage in, garbage out. Recording how much business is being generated gives real value to the chapter because it shows how the team is actually performing.

In any business, if you don’t measure revenues, sales, or client contacts, you have no idea what needs improving. So explain the why, show them how to do it, walk them through it, and follow up. You’re right: we definitely underreport.

When I speak to the media, it’s actually helpful to say the number is low rather than exaggerated. If someone hears 19 billion dollars in one year, their first reaction is disbelief. But when you explain that’s only what members reported, and that some business is never recorded, it makes the figure more credible.

Darren: In our business, every month we go through our invoices, trace where the business came from, and if it came from BNI, we record the thank-you-for-business in time for the first meeting of the month. I just wish everyone did that.

Ivan Misner: And there’s even more that never gets reported. Think about second-generation, third-generation, fourth-generation referrals. You get a referral from a member, then that referral refers someone else to you, and so on. We don’t track that.

I know a CPA who was part of the original BNI chapter and tracked these referral chains years ago. She stopped at eight generations deep. All we really track is referral number one, but so much more business comes as a result of the BNI relationship.

Darren: That’s true. Some members do track it, especially accountants, but most don’t. Those downstream referrals usually never get entered.

Ivan Misner: Exactly.

Darren: Reporting is clearly essential for growth. One of our newest members, Raymond Jones the photographer, asked: what are your personal secrets to success? Measuring seems to be one, but what are the others?

Ivan Misner: On a macro level, the secret to success without hard work and good choices is still a secret. It doesn’t exist. Long-term success comes from hard work and good decisions.
Sometimes people win the lottery, but very few do, and many of them end up broke because they never learned how to manage money. So luck is not a strategy.

Here’s something I’ve taught for many years: if you want to be successful in business, do six things a thousand times, not a thousand things six times. Too many people chase bright, shiny objects. They keep trying the next new thing and never stay with anything long enough to master it.

If I have any superpower as a businessperson, it’s that I’m a dog with a bone. I’ll take something and work it and work it and work it. That’s one reason BNI meetings are weekly. It’s a system and a process built on regular repetition with people you know, like, and trust.

Darren: That reminds me of a Bruce Lee quote: “I don’t fear the man who has practiced 6,000 kicks once. I fear the man who has practiced one kick 6,000 times.”

Ivan Misner: Yes, very much the same idea.

Darren: One thing I really wanted to ask about: in almost every BNI chapter or core group I’ve worked with, the biggest problem is getting visitors into the room and getting members engaged enough to invite them. What advice would you give a new member, or even someone in a core group, on how to approach people and get them to come and experience a meeting?

Ivan Misner: A couple of things. First, I think we’ve become overly reliant on brochures, materials, and websites. When I started BNI, I had none of that. There was no internet in 1985. I literally started with one sheet of paper: the agenda I had typed myself.
People would ask, “Do you have brochures?” I’d say no, but you need to come to the meeting and bring 35 business cards because we’re all about generating referrals. They’d ask for information, and I’d say the same thing: you need to come experience it. I opened 20 chapters in one year with essentially no materials.

The best invitation method I recommend now is something I call “we’re interviewing.” It sounds like this:
“I’m in a referral group. We get together regularly. We’re interviewing people in your profession right now because we want to find someone we can give all our referrals to. I think you might make a good candidate.”

That changes the dynamic completely.

Ivan Misner: What often happens now is that members say, “You’ve got to join this organization. Yes, it meets every week and it’s a lot of work, but…” and they immediately start selling from a weak position. Don’t beg anyone to come to a networking meeting. You’re doing them a favor by inviting them into a group that passes billions in business.

The “we’re interviewing” approach flips the invitation. It creates a sense of exclusivity. You don’t say, “We may not pick you,” but that’s implied, and entrepreneurs hate not being chosen. When they attend, actually interview them. Don’t just say you’re interviewing them—do it properly.

We have resources on this at bnipodcast.com. Look for “We’re Interviewing” and the interview form. Just remember it’s an interview, not an interrogation. Use the questions selectively and focus on whether they’re a good fit.

If someone says they’re too busy, then say: “I understand. I’m glad business is going well. Can you recommend someone really good in your profession that we could give all our referrals to?” They probably won’t recommend a direct competitor, but they may suggest an employee or associate.

Darren: I think I’ve actually heard that episode. I do listen to your podcast every week.

Ivan Misner: Thank you. Here’s something interesting we discovered a couple of years ago: membership retention in BNI goes up substantially when two things happen.

First, and this is expected, people who go through Member Success Program training have higher retention. No surprise there.

But the second surprised me: people who have invited someone who joined—so, people who sponsor someone—have the highest retention. The more I thought about it, the more it made sense. If you bring friends, associates, or trusted contacts into your chapter, you feel more connected and are less likely to leave.

Darren: That is interesting. Thinking about it, some of the newer members in our chapter who brought visitors that joined have stayed more engaged.

Ivan Misner: Exactly. And that’s why tracking data matters. That insight came from data, not guesswork.

Darren: One of our members, Daniel Whitaker from Steam and Clean, asked how your initial vision for BNI evolved over time. Did you ever expect it to become what it is today?

Ivan Misner: The short answer is no. I didn’t expect it to become what it is today. I started BNI because I needed referrals for my consulting practice after losing a big client. I formed one group. Just one. I didn’t intend to build a network.

Then someone came to that first group and couldn’t join because her classification was already represented. She said, “This is great. Would you help me open a second chapter?” I said no at first because I didn’t run networks; I was a business consultant. But eventually I agreed.

At the first meeting of that second chapter, two more people came who also couldn’t join due to classification conflicts, and they asked me to help them open chapters in their cities. Again, I resisted at first, but eventually boom—we were off to the races. That’s why I had no brochures or marketing material. I never intended for this to become a business.

After one year, we had opened 20 chapters. That was my epiphany moment. I call it my “Brody moment,” from Jaws, when Sheriff Brody sees the shark and says, “You’re going to need a bigger boat.” In December 1985, I reflected on what had happened and realized BNI was going to be much bigger than I had ever imagined.

By June 1986, after going to the library and doing all the research manually, I calculated that one day BNI might have 10,000 chapters. At the time, I had 30 chapters. I remember telling a friend, “I think BNI could have 10,000 chapters someday,” and he basically thought I was crazy.

In December 2020, BNI crossed the 10,000 chapter mark. And we did it in about half the time I expected.

Darren: Wow.

Ivan Misner: So no, I didn’t expect it initially. But once I saw the pattern, I recognized the opportunity and acted on it.

Darren: I wanted to ask you about meeting structure. Every BNI meeting follows the same broad framework around the world, though each region adds its own personality. In our area, there are nearby regions that handle visitors and substitutes differently. For example, they don’t allow substitutes or visitors to do the weekly presentation. What are your thoughts on that?

Ivan Misner: Those chapters are doing it right.

Ivan Misner: A visitor can do a brief introduction, but a substitute should represent the profession and member they are substituting for. That’s how it was designed.

Darren: In our chapter, we allow the substitute to do a presentation for their own business after everyone else. Why would they ever join otherwise?

Ivan Misner: Because if substitutes come in to promote themselves, they’re double-dipping, and you’re allowing it. It benefits the substitute and the absent member who hasn’t found someone truly willing to represent them.

I’ve said before that one of my regrets is creating substitutes at all, because they get abused so much. A good substitute should be amazing. If I sub for you and talk about how excellent you are at what you do, that is far more powerful than you talking about yourself. When you praise yourself, it sounds like bragging. When someone else praises you, it has credibility. That’s what the substitute system is supposed to be about.
So my question is this: why accept mediocrity when excellence is an option?
Chapters that let substitutes promote their own business are accepting mediocrity. I know people argue that if they don’t allow it, there will be more absences because members from other chapters won’t want to sub. But in my experience, if you expect the best from people, you tend to get it. If you expect less than the best, you definitely get that.
The challenge is that once a culture of low expectations is established, it becomes very difficult to change.

Darren: The difficulty is that some members really struggle to find substitutes unless they ask people from other chapters.

Ivan Misner: Then they are making excuses. I know a contractor who has been in BNI for 20 years and finds other contractors, clients, or long-term customers to substitute for him. The point is that a chapter should seek substitutes who genuinely represent the member. Otherwise, it’s false advertising.

Darren: I wasn’t trying to find a loophole, just trying to understand the practical side.

Ivan Misner: I’m not talking about you personally. I’m talking about what’s best for a chapter. What’s best is not looking for loopholes. Follow the program.

Darren: I’ll bring it up with the chapter. Even if it causes some pushback, I’ll bring it up.

Ivan Misner: Then I’d recommend using the podcast episode where I discuss it, so it doesn’t sound like it’s just your opinion. Episode 533: “There’s No Substitute for a Good Substitute.”

Darren: I think I’ve heard that one as well. We can move on. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

Ivan Meisner: Exactly.

Darren: There’s another thing we do that isn’t strictly part of the agenda: what we call the contribution section. We treat referrals, visitors, and testimonials as contributions.

Ivan Meisner: A visitor is not part of a testimonial section. There really isn’t a “contribution section” as such. There’s the referral part of the meeting, and in that part you either give a referral or a testimonial for a member.

Darren: Yes, and if we’ve brought a visitor, we also thank them during that section.

Ivan Misner: Does that really add value? Why not thank the visitor during your weekly presentation? The referral part of the meeting is supposed to be about another member. You are either giving a referral to a member or giving a testimonial for a member. Thanking the visitor there is filling blank space and making it about yourself.

Let me read something from Tom Peters, from In Search of Excellence. He describes how systems get more and more bloated over time because each new person adds something. Eventually the system becomes so elaborate it needs an army to administer it and leaves no room for initiative.

That’s what happens when chapters keep adding things to the meeting. One small addition at a time, and suddenly the meeting is overloaded.

Darren: I think I know where my next question is going then. Another thing we do during that section is announce any thank-you-for-business we’ve recorded, for example: “I’ve got a referral for this person, a referral for that person, and I’ve entered £2,000 thank-you-for-business from this member.” Some members feel that extends the meeting unnecessarily.

Ivan Misner: Those members are absolutely correct.

The idea of that part of the meeting is to spend your time giving a referral or thanking someone who did a good job. If you have extra time, the focus should be on edifying another member, not patting yourself on the back for business you received.

Darren: The reason we do it is that visitors in the room can then see real examples. If an electrician stands up and thanks a letting agent for £2,000 worth of business, that feels tangible and believable. It makes BNI more real to the visitor.

Ivan Misner: I understand that, but visitors are already hearing 30, 40, or 50 referrals passed live in the meeting, and they also hear the total business generated by the chapter. Those are the two ends of the spectrum: the detailed activity and the big-picture result. That should already make the value real enough.

It still isn’t part of the meeting structure. If Arthur or Jane or John Doe keeps adding stuff to the meeting, eventually you end up with a two-hour meeting. Stop doing it.

Darren: We’ve been told.

Ivan Misner: It’s just my opinion. Your chapter will do what it does. But you’re being respectful and I appreciate that.

A few years ago I had someone publicly argue with me in front of 300 people. He didn’t like my answers. So I asked him what he did, how long he’d done it, and whether he was good at it. He said he’d been doing it for 25 years and was very good. Then I asked whether he ever had people tell him he was wrong when he gave professional advice. He said yes.

So I told him: “I’ve been doing this for 30 years. Some people think I’m pretty good at it. My advice is to go in this direction, not that direction.” My point was simple: you either take the advice or you don’t, but it comes from experience.
Darren: I’ll see what the chapter does. It’s definitely going to be interesting.

Ivan Misner: What I’d ask the members to think about is what’s best for the chapter, not what’s easiest.

Ivan Misner: I’ve always believed you can go easy-hard or hard-easy. Easy-hard means taking the easy path whenever possible, but eventually things get harder. Hard-easy means doing the hard thing now so things become easier later.

Your chapter may already be a good chapter, but in some ways it sounds like it may be taking the easy path, which could create harder problems later. I’d encourage the chapter to do some introspection and ask what harder choice now could make the future easier.

Darren: That’s a much more tactful way of putting it. I’ll mention that.

I’ve got one more question, and this one is more selfish in terms of my own BNI journey. I’m helping our executive director with a core group. I was in a core group once before in 2012, and it lasted about 18 months, which I know is far longer than it should.

Ivan Misner: Way, way too long. I never took more than four months to launch a chapter. Usually it was two or three.

What I would do is say: “I’m here to help, but we are not on schedule. I’m going to go around the room, and I want each of you to tell me whether you will do your part next week. Are you in or are you out? If you’re out, that’s okay. But if you’re in, these things need to happen.”

And if enough people weren’t willing to do it, I would say: “Thank you for your honesty. I’ll try to place you into other chapters, and we’re going to shut this core group down.” That might sound harsh, but it saves everybody’s time. It saved me 14 months of wasted effort, and more importantly, it saved prospective members 14 months of frustration.
The key is drawing a line in the sand. Tough love. Don’t be mean, but be firm. The more you let people get away with poor performance, the more mediocrity becomes acceptable.

Darren: I know you’re right. It’s just hard to admit when something isn’t working.

Ivan Misner: Of course. But I’ve had cases where after shutting a group down, two or three people said, “We’re all in. Let’s start over,” and then they launched successfully in eight weeks with the right people.

Darren: I think that’s the key. In the core group I was in back in 2012, some people clearly shouldn’t have been there. They were showing up, sometimes not even every week, and doing nothing. No visitors, no effort.

Ivan Misner: We call those “members in name only.” I’ve also heard them called “90-minute members.”
Sometimes the best way to build a chapter or launch a group is what I call “addition by subtraction.”

One day I came home and my late wife had cut back all the rose bushes in our garden. I asked why, and she explained that if you want rose bushes to bloom properly, sometimes you have to cut them way back first. I thought, “That’s a BNI chapter.” Sometimes you have to cut a chapter back in order for it to grow.

That applies to core groups too. If you’ve got someone who isn’t committed, hand them their application back and say, “We appreciate your interest, but this isn’t a good fit.” Addition by subtraction.

Darren: I completely agree. We did that in our group a couple of years ago when it was struggling. I took over as chapter president, and we identified a couple of members who really shouldn’t have been there because they weren’t doing anything. Once they left, the chapter shrank but then grew from around eight or nine members back up to 24 or 25.

Ivan Misner: Exactly. Good for you. That’s hard to do, and it feels counterintuitive, like being told in driver’s ed to turn into the skid on ice. It doesn’t feel right, but it is right.

It works because you remove the dead wood. Some people complain like it’s an Olympic event. They drain energy from the chapter. When you remove members in name only, the others realize you’re serious and they step up.

Darren: That’s exactly what happened. Some people didn’t like it, but it had to be done.

Ivan Misner: Right. That’s focusing on excellence.

Darren: I feel better now. You’re not telling me off anymore.

Ivan Misner: I wasn’t telling you off. I was being honest based on years of experience. Sometimes it’s useful to hear a different perspective.

Darren: Especially from someone with your experience.

Ivan Misner: Let me give you a personal example.

Ivan Misner: Ten years ago I was diagnosed with cancer and told I had six months to choose surgery, radiation, or chemotherapy. I chose a holistic route and managed to go 10 years without those treatments. During that period my medical doctor asked me, somewhat frustrated, why I kept coming to see him if I wasn’t following his advice.

I asked him whether he was familiar with groupthink. I explained the difference between the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis: in one case, leaders listened too narrowly; in the other, they allowed a broader range of views, including uncomfortable ones. I told him, “You are my antidote to groupthink.” He liked that.

And six months ago I decided it was finally time, and just a month or so ago I underwent radiation. I’m in good health.

My point is this: sometimes we need to hear things we don’t want to hear so we can make informed decisions. I’m sure I’ve said things today that some of your chapter members won’t want to hear. My goal is only to help you have the best possible experience and results.

Darren: I can tell you love it. Your passion is obvious.
Ivan Misner: I think people either work in their flame or in their wax. When they work in their flame, they’re energized and passionate. When they work in their wax, it drains them. This is definitely my flame.

Darren: We’ve got time for one last question. Our secretary-treasurer, Denise Durban from Speedwell Roofing, asked: if you could do one thing in life knowing it absolutely could not fail, what would it be?

Ivan Misner: I think I’m about to do it. I’m a future astronaut for Virgin Galactic. I bought a ticket back in 2007, so I’ve been waiting a long time. I’ll be one of the first hundred or so people on the commercial flights. I’ve had the chance to meet Richard Branson many times, and he’s an amazing human being. So yes, I’m going to be an astronaut.

Darren: That’s incredible. Thank you very much for joining me. It’s been an absolute pleasure, and we had a real ding-dong in the middle there, which I loved.

Ivan Misner: Thank you. I’m always happy to take tough questions. Just know that I want the best for members, and sometimes that means being very honest from my own perspective and experience.

Darren: I appreciate that. Thank you very much.